Presented by Stephen McCarthy, Camp Director
Nike Volleyball Camp at the National Volleyball Center
The Rise of Beach Volleyball and its Effects on Indoor Training with Stephen McCarthy
JACK: Hey, everybody. On today's podcast we are thrilled to be joined by Stephen McCarthy for our second episode. Coach McCarthy is the owner of The McCarthy Project and runs indoor and beach volleyball camps with us here at USSC. He also hosts his own podcast that can be found on iTunes, titled The McCarthy Project. Be sure to go check it out.
A few of the camp locations that Coach McCarthy directs are Nike Volleyball Camps at the Joy of the Game Sports Center in Illinois, Nassau Community College in New York, and the National Volleyball Center in Minnesota. Coach McCarthy's experience shatters the ceiling of training elite athletes in sport and in life. The McCarthy Project provides outside-of-the-box philosophy and training in an attempt to help athletes reach the highest level possible.
Siera Love the Nike Volleyball Camps national manager has developed a fantastic partnership with Stephen McCarthy.
SIERA LOVE: We have really loved partnering with Stephen McCarthy over the last few years. We've gone from one location to five locations with him for 2019. He's just an incredibly passionate person and enthusiastic about reaching out to these campers and creating a positive experience for them that will last for their lifetimes.
JACK: Today we will be discussing the rise of beach volleyball and how that can supplement indoor training. We will also explore the potential opportunity for youth athletes across the U.S. as boys volleyball continues to grow. For more information on camps near you, visit ussportscamps.com.
This is the Camp Corner Corner podcast presented by US Sports Camps.
Hey, Stephen, how are you doing today?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Very good. How are you?
JACK: I'm doing well. I'm doing well. Where are you calling from today?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: You know, it's interesting that you asked but, you know, it's kind of a loaded question but I am actually in Minnesota. And, yes, we are going to talk about beach volleyball and indoor volleyball. But yes, it is, it is December in Minnesota where snow is actually on the ground.
JACK: Snow is falling and is on the ground and it's very cold. Well, perfect.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah.
JACK: I want to thank you for hopping on the call. I'm excited to have you on here for our second episode here for the Camp Corner podcast at US Sports Camps. I think it's a great opportunity for us to talk and kind of get your expertise on what volleyball is. And so, just so you can maybe relate to some of the listeners that we got. I know a lot of your background with The McCarthy Project and what you're doing now with Nike Volleyball Camps. But if you would maybe touch on just what you kind of have going right now and what you started with The McCarthy Project, that'd be great.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me on the show. I really was very excited to kind of share ideas, you know, with other coaches from that standpoint. We started in 2001. The McCarthy Project, I guess, started in the weight room, primarily, and what we were attempting to do was, at that time, there weren't many people actually providing any sort of like strength and conditioning, speed development, all that kind of stuff. And that's what we did for the first, probably—well, we still continue to this day.
But in about 2014 I met a player. Her name was Lindsey Berg. She was an Olympic setter and played at the University of Minnesota. And she was very kind to invest time into me. And I got to ask all my questions about what it takes to be an elite athlete. And one of the great things about her was she was not what they would consider an elite athlete, but she was an elite player and she knew how to do things. And she asked me if I'd be involved with your camp here locally. And so, we got started in the world of indoor.
And it's right behind that I've always been an outdoorsman. I enjoyed walking around outside, believe or not. And so, the idea of playing volleyball outside was almost the greatest idea that I'd ever thought of possible. I didn't realize that boys did actually play. Because in Minnesota boys don't play volleyball at least at the junior level, you know, as far as I knew. I only knew these parks dry when the Olympics would come around every year.
JACK: Of course.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: But, yeah, in 2014 we started. And so, we would be actually considered a sort of a, like, a crossover group in the sense that we teach both. There's others that are a little bit more indoor-only, beach-only on both sides. But I actually feel that young people have the ability to think and they can actually figure things out if you just kind of give them an idea what’s going on.
JACK: Exactly, and that kind of sounds what The McCarthy Project is like. It's about teaching these young kids, these young athletes—boys and girls—and specifically in the sport of volleyball lots of lessons on the court, how to become a better athlete and a better player, and even off the court, becoming a better person and how to carry yourself outside of volleyball.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yes. And I think that's one of the big things that if there is what I think is so great about Nike Volleyball and the camps that we run together and what we do outside of those camps is that so many young people today just want to be treated with respect. They just want to have fun, obviously. They want to learn and they want to learn how to stick to things. You know what I mean? They also want to be told what to do. And I think that's one of the great things about what Siera and Nike Volleyball have given me as an opportunity to go ahead and share those ideas with young people.
JACK: Yeah. And I can tell you from talking with Siera and with Liz and the rest of the volleyball department there is that we really value what you and the rest of your staff can bring from The McCarthy Project ideals into what Nike Volleyball Camps is. And that's really teaching young kids to become better athletes and learn life lessons at our camps while doing so. And I think that is fantastic and hits the dot on just what we want from youth and, you know, young boys and girls athletes.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: So it's an interesting time, I think, in the world of being really technical. You know, that there is the element of fun that they talk about but they have to find somebody to get it in there.
JACK: Right. Right. Totally. And I know that you've even talked a little about that on your own podcast and maybe, you know, you wouldn't mind telling us just what you do with that podcast if you've recorded anything recently or what that may look like.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah, it's interesting because we did start the podcast three or four years ago right about the same time as we got into volleyball. And actually one of the people that influenced me to get involved was Lindsey Berg who was an Olympic setter and a graduate of the University of Minnesota here, locally. And she would come on. I had basically, you know, I did know her previous to her being here. And we had reached out to her. She said yes, which I was very excited for. But she came on and she was probably one of most thoughtful players that I had ever talked to in my long -- in my 20 years. And she was willing to go there and willing to open herself up to questions that I had. You know what I mean? And I always wanted to know.
And really, honestly, when I look at the podcast that we've done and what it was meaning is really as a former athlete, I just had a lot of questions and I wanted to know the answers.
JACK: Yeah, totally.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: So, you know, it's just basically what I did. And so when I did the podcast, it was my way of asking all the questions I ever wanted to and more. And so, Lindsey was kind enough to invest in that. From that, she ended up coming to Minnesota and doing a camp which she invited me to be involved with. And that was kind of the start of my journey into volleyball. But I had a chance to interview everybody from, you know, hip-hop artists, to college coaches, to, you know, Russ Rose from Penn State. It was just really kind of fascinating. We even interviewed an actor from the movie 42.
JACK: Oh, wow.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And it was going to be related—yeah, definitely related to, I believe it's, I'm not a baseball guy, but Branch Rickey, her name Kelly Jekel. I almost fell over when they said yes. But she was fantastic. You know, spent 20 minutes with us. It was really—it was really—I really enjoyed the time, because I get to ask the questions I want to ask. And I think that's where the conversation comes and that's where the -- instead of the standard pat, you know, "Hey, we're going to talk about this, and we're going to say, you know what, you need to go on the X, Y, Z diet and you need to do this. And that would be –
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: – no, no, no, there's more flow to this thing. You know what I mean?
JACK: Exactly. Exactly.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And that's kind of how -- and I think that's the beauty of a podcast is it doesn't have very rigid talking points. Like sports, you know, or other, like, ESPN thing, like, they're very rigid. You know what I mean?
JACK: Of course.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: They don't want to give away the information.
JACK: Of course.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: You know what I mean?
JACK: Yeah, yeah.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: I think, you know, I think, when people like came on the podcasts were much more, you know, it was freer it didn't have the structure.
JACK: Exactly. It provides an open channel just like what we're doing, you know, just to communicate and just talk about what you've experienced.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah.
JACK: And it's -- all of it is --
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Correct.
JACK: All of it is raw. All of it is real. There's no kind of spin. There's nothing to, you know, hit any type of keyword or something. It's, we just want to chat about. And that's actually why I love that I get to do this for our company is because I get to connect with great coaches like you and ask the questions that I'm interested and that I think people will be interested to know about. You know, like going into kind of what –
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah.
JACK: -- our topic is today is the growth of beach volleyball and how is that rising.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yes.
JACK: And what have you seen personally. Even though you're in Minnesota what do you see happening with that sport.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Well, I mean, is that the question? Because, I mean, it is almost a loaded question.
JACK: I know. Yeah. But, it's just –
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Like, it's almost like kind of laugh.
JACK: Yeah, exactly, it's like, obviously, it's growing and how have you seen that, you know, affect other facets of volleyball, just as a whole.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yes. It's an interesting thing because being from Minnesota and being involved in the beach volleyball world is almost like a -- it's kind of ironic, you know, how in the world does that happen? You know what I mean?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Well, a couple sideline things is that you'd be surprised at how many really influential people are from Minnesota in the beach industry. And, usually, what happens is we get excited about the sport and then we leave Minnesota. That's usually what happens. Fortunately, I decided to stay. But that's a whole another story to get in with that.
But essentially, I'll give a little background information on the beach industry or the beach sport.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Or the sport of beach if you will.
JACK: Yeah, yeah.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Is that from what I can gather in the '90s, I don't know—I'm 50 years old, so I'm old enough to remember the pink hat and all that kind of stuff.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Randy and all those guys that played back in the '90s and they're on TV all the time. I didn't think anything of it because in Minnesota it wasn't a high school sport for boys. So it didn't connect in the head per se. But it was a very, very big following, big purses for, you know, like local tournaments, you know, things like this that were just was on fire at the adult level. Never really kind of picked up at the junior level except for in, like, Florida, you know, war of the beaches, right?
JACK: Right. Right. And that makes, I mean, that kind of makes sense.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Well—and so—yeah, that's—but what ends up happening is instead of kind of capitalizing on it, AVP kind of goes through some incantations and doesn't manage the business very well and basically collapses, unfortunately. And with it, I think the sport kind of took a back seat which is now; we're up into the 2000s, during that 10 years.
Well, four or five years ago, I think with [inaudible 0:13:25], you know, winning all the Olympic stuff, they kind of jumped back on board and the AVP has always been going along. And now it's under new ownership. I'm actually involved with it, AVP Academy with helping with clinics, you know, for the beach player, you know, things like that.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: So it's interesting how they essentially come full circle. And I think now that the AVP has kind of got themselves righted; now they can start to develop all the junior aspect of it because they've always had the pro players. Now, they'll go ahead and see if we can get some of the junior players involved. And then, I think, you'll start to see it come back. Now, all that said is that, I think, we're only, in comparison to 1990, we're very small. But in the junior world is where the big growth is happening. There are a lot of really high-quality players that really enjoy playing on sand versus playing indoor. But the difficulty is that we have to get people get up to speed. And it's interesting how some of the subjects that we're going to be talking about later in interview are actually the reasons why more people will play beach volleyball. So I hope that wasn't too long-winded.
JACK: No, no. It's interesting because you relate so much to it in terms of indoor training versus beach volleyball and how people are kind of growing into possibly liking beach volleyball more.
And do you think that whether you play indoor or on the beach, how does that really affect, you know, the training or how does that affect what kind of volleyball players that kind of creates further on –
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah.
JACK: – for those junior kids? Do they see a better type of environment playing only beach or only indoor or, you know, cross training for those?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah I’ll try to hit each one of them. Because each one has a little bit different, you know, like aspect to it. In general, indoor volleyball is more popular primarily due to the financial side. Right now, even though that there are a lot of opportunities for playing beach at college, there isn't a lot of money associated with that. It's not everybody on the team gets a full right scholarship. That type a thing.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Whereas the indoor, there still is a lot of scholarships, 15,000 of them something like this throughout the nation. So there's a lot of opportunity for players. Conversely, with the beach world, there's 130 programs and not all of them are full ride scholarship. So as you could see, there's going to be a lot more opportunities per se.
As that changes, as that grows, what's end up happening is this idea of, "Can you play both? Do you have to be one or the other?" You know, those type of questions which I think you're alluding to.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And I do believe I'm in the -- I'm in the camp of an athlete is an athlete. And if you're a good coach, you can coach either one. There are a lot of indoor coaches that are, "Hey, you're messing up my athlete by bringing them out there, and we don't want them to think all those other things that you're teaching them. We only want them to think one thing and that's what they specialize, indoor." I happen to know a college coach that actually has a beach program at their school but does not allow the beach coach to teach them all the different aspects of the beach game because he only wants them to know how to hit hard and hit this way.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: So it kind of becomes this -- yeah. So it becomes a very big discussion about, you know, what are the differences to now kind of lead into that.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: But the biggest difference that I see is timing. When you're running around and jumping on a hard court versus sand it's going to be different. And the timing of how you hit the ball, timing how you pass is just different.
JACK: Timing it to even get to that ball versus having two players on the court versus six.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Correct. Correct. And it's much more of a -- In the world of indoor because you have six players, you're much more specialized. You know what I mean?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And it's an interesting story because the first year I did work with Lindsey at our camp, I had a dynamic warmup that I had that took about 10, 12 minutes. And after doing it, she comes over and says, "You know, you're going to have to back off a little bit because that's a little bit too strenuous." And I think that's -- it's kind of like; indoor volleyball players are like thoroughbreds. Do you know what I mean? Don't mess with them. Do you know what I mean? They don't have to be in big cardiovascular shapes, you know. They have to be able to play for a while, obviously, but they don't have to be like -- don't mess with them, right?
JACK: Right, right. They don't need to be extremely fit. They don't need to be running laps a bunch. They need to just be training and things like that. And, of course –
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah.
JACK: -- versus on the beach.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: But then you look at the other side.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah. You got to be strong. And it's interesting because you'll see a lot of players when they attempt to move to the sand, they don't go anywhere.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: But they may be great indoor players, but why can't they move on the sand? I personally have players that are what we would call indoor-wise second tier but are almost like they're undefeated in Minnesota. Because they can move and they can jump and they're stronger in a different way, they're actually able to overcome what would normally be a player that they would just get smoked by. That's I think the difference. It's almost like, believe it or not, it's two different types of athlete that do well. Even though you can be a very good player in both, I think it's not as common.
There's another player that was—her name is Sarah Collin. She's up from Canada, you know, north of the states, was fantastic at college, played in Nebraska, played pro, all that kind of stuff. And then she decided to switch over to breach. And now she's one of the top-rated players on the beach circuit. So, it really—it's—and you'll see a lot of indoor players after they've done indoor go over and play outside.
JACK: That's interesting. And, I mean, it's not like—and it's not like the versatility hurts necessarily, is that right?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: No.
JACK: I know that the indoor coaches may not like some of the training that beach volleyball players do. But when it comes down to it, is it really that much of a problem or, you know, hurting some type of technique or fundamentals indoor versus outdoor? Is there really that much of an issue with playing both and cross training?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: I don't think so. I think it, primarily, has to do with the coaches kind of philosophy of coaching, if you will.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: There is a lot of, maybe I think, in the world of reading the ball and doing what you want to do in space and communicating and understanding what your team is doing or what they're going to do. Okay, now I'm going to guess what they're doing. So that's why I think the reading of the game becomes such a great tool. Because we've had players that go back indoor and they're able to pull off shots that they wouldn't normally have done because they saw them and now they say, oh, well I’ll just put it over in that open spot. Do you know what I mean?
JACK: Right, right.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And then they're able to do it.
JACK: Right, right.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And so, it's just a matter of playing the game better, right? On the other hand, you go back into the—after playing outdoors for the summer and your timing is all off and you can't do this hard and the coach immediately says, "Well, you're not playing outdoor anymore because your timing is way off." Well, just give the athlete a couple of minutes. They'll figure it out. They'll pull it back together.
JACK: Yeah, and that's what I was going to say, I mean, and then they—then the kids will go back indoors and it's different. So I'm a soccer player and I play on, you know, grass. I'm from Southern California. We play on grass a lot down there. Came to play college soccer up in Northern California here in the Bay Area and everything is turf. Now, exactly it's not the same as indoor versus outdoor. But timing, the way the ball spins, the way the ball skips, the way the ball rolls is all different. And everyone has to adjust to that, even professional players, it's a change and it takes a second. But these kids have developed the, you know, the timing and the momentum and the fundamentals and the techniques to stay, you know, or at least remember how that sport works. And I agree with you that I would think that they would just need a second to maybe get back into the groove and not immediately be written off that, you know, their fundamentals or techniques are thrown off now because their timing is all different and they are reading different type of spaces and different type of hits. So I would 100% agree with you.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yes. Well, and I think that's interesting about the concept is, I think people don't -- I don't think people give athletes enough respect or kudos or whatever you want to say that they are athletes.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And that's why they're playing college or they're playing pros because they can adapt.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And if you just say that's what -- you just need to explain it to them that, oh, well, that makes sense, I can give it 20 minutes, you know, to figure it out.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And that, again, I'm actually pretty smart as an athlete, oh, wow, I can actually figure this out. And I think that's the piece that so much and I think this goes into a coaching philosophy discussion pretty quick.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: But in the end, there are a lot of coaches that want the control over their players and that's the way they coach.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And if you add any sort of variable that they're not familiar with, they're going to say that's bad, right?
JACK: Mm hmm.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And hence you don't get to do it if you play for that coach. And it's interesting because, I think, one of the things that's happening, at least, in college we'll see is as Nebraska who's won the national championships, you know, over the last couple of years quite frequently, right, have a beach program.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And they have their indoor players playing in that beach program. So it's, we'll have to wait and see as the future roles out what and how it kind of comes together. But I think they're going to be multiple different ways to look at it and use beach as a training tool versus holding restrictions on athletes.
JACK: Right. And you kind of touched on it earlier too. Do you think both boys and girls are now gaining access to playing both indoors and outdoors?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Good question. I think the beach thing is so ironic to me is that when you look at the players that play young adults or after college; the majority of them by far are guys. Okay.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: I mean, like, probably, 70or 80%, I mean, I may be off of my percentages, but you know what I'm saying --
JACK: It's a higher percentage.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: -- it's a very large percentage.
JACK: Yeah, exactly.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yes, yes. Whereas the girls not so much. But in the junior levels is exactly the opposite. It's like serious number of girls, like, we're talking, like, in Minnesota alone there's 15,000, right?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: But there's only 120 boys scholarships. That's what I heard the last time, at college for boys volleyball. In Minnesota, the first year it's ever been a high school sport was this year. And it's amazing because, look at the Olympics, the guys are who have done really, really well on the international level, and it's kind of amazing, we look at volleyball actually as a whole is a great sport for guys, but it's just an unknown.
Kind of like soccer was probably, like, do you know what I mean?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: 10 or 15 years ago soccer was an unknown.
JACK: In the United States. Even in the United States, soccer is still becoming a thing. And it's a battle. And I think that could definitely relate to what boys volleyball probably has to go through once you get juniors and up into high school and college.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the, kind of the future, is to say, "How can we, you know, where are we at?" And I think at the junior level we’re probably a lot like soccer was probably 15 years ago. And to a certain lacrosse, lacrosse is another one, at least, in Minnesota. My son actually plays lacrosse and when he started there was six guys, you know, that basically really knew how to get the helmet on right, you know, and didn't know what pads went where and all that kind of stuff to now where there's, you know, there's probably 150 high school teams and really high-level stuff and companies are coming out recruit them and stuff. And that took 10 years for that to take place.
JACK: It takes time. It's hard for a sport to just grow, obviously, overnight. It doesn't happen. And so, it sounds like in your terms you're thinking that the future for boys volleyball beach may be growing and indoor growing as well?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: I do. I think so. The thing that's going to be, I think, if I was to put my futuristic hat on, I think boys volleyball would go a little quicker just because the difficulty with beach that there is only a really short window, basically, north of Missouri, you know, if you will, in the United State. You know, if you go off to the west coast, it's probably a little later, you know what I mean a little later. But again, a lot of the talent, you know, is still in areas that are—there's—they don't have beach, right?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And so, it's one of those things where I think boys volleyball but it's been around, like, in the world of the Midwest Wisconsin which is one state over has a big, you know, boys program. Chicago, Illinois has a big boys volleyball program. So it's one of those things where I think as we get a little bit more exposure, you know what I mean, get on ESPN just like soccer and what time it rolls around and we would get out of the Olympics, you know, because that's when I think a lot of people will pick up boys volleyball. They think it's a California thing.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And it only happens every four years.
JACK: Right. Yeah.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And so that's another thing.
JACK: Yeah. And it's crazy to me. I haven't obviously been super involved with volleyball just because of the other sports that I've played. But I remember when I was younger and one of my good buddies was playing volleyball. And now that we've been kind of briefing on all this and talking today, it makes me realize I remember he was traveling long distances to go play teams because I'm thinking now to myself that that's because there weren't many teams to play and that they were all kind of in remote, random locations where there was a hot spot or a hub for boys to play volleyball.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the really difficult position for boys, especially, like, I happen to know some people that are friends up in Winnipeg which is seven hours further north of me, up actually, that’s obviously, in Canada.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And in order to go to a boys' tournament, they've got to drive down between cities, just to go to a boy's regular everyday tournament.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: And so, when you get to drive six hours one way just to play the tournament, you know, there's only going to be the select few that are committed, you know, to basically spend the whole weekend just to play in a regular tournament. Do you know what I mean?
JACK: Yeah. The dedication –
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: I guess that's the part –
JACK: The dedication has to be through the roof for that.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yes, exactly. And then you find out that, you know, to a certain extent it kind of becomes not very much fun because when you play your same, you know, buddies, you know, year after year, year after year, you'll eventually kind of get to the point where like, "Oh, my gosh, I just want to play somebody different."
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Do you know what I mean? And I think that's –
JACK: Right. Yeah. Well, I think we've really touched on everything I was looking to talk about. Is there anything else you would like to add just about the sport of volleyball or beach volleyball in general?
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: No. I just think that the -- I thank you for the opportunity, first of all. This is a big deal. And I think I want to just encourage everybody to get involved with camps. I think that's going to become the big ticket working with Nike Volleyball. It's been fantastic to go places and teach kids the different skills and then teach about reading the game and all this kind of stuff.
JACK: Just going to relate this to you personally. Three, obviously, top locations that you're at are in Illinois, New York, and Minnesota. And you're traveling to coach camps with us and I think it's a great opportunity to see coaches from different areas play with different kids and get out there and learn from different coaches.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah. And the funny thing is one of the things that, well, I think has been fantastic about Nike Volleyball; they've given me an opportunity to go out to other states, if you will. And the thing that's interesting about it is that I think kids, if you really treat them as human beings and that you -- if you want to pass along something to them, that they really do respond well to that, you know. And they want -- they're hungry for the information. But in situations like we're discussing, there may not be a good option. You know, feel like I've been out to New York City and they had mentioned that there are not very many camps out there and you have to travel long distance to be involved with the club. Do you know what I mean? So it is something that if we go out and pass along the love of hitting a ball really hard is a great thing.
JACK: Awesome. Well, I want to thank you for getting on this call and talking with me. I think everything that we talked about is very interesting, at least, to me and to you, and I think a lot of people will find it interesting to see kind of where beach volleyball is going and how that's trending towards indoor versus outdoor training and even the growth of boys volleyball in the hopes that it becomes big and it doesn't take as long as some sports or some things can take. And I think it could be a really great thing for boys to start at a younger age and build and build and build and have the opportunity to play in college. Because as a kid that played in college, my first thought once I got into high school was, I want to get better, I want to go to camps, I want to meet new coaches, and I want to play in college.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah.
JACK: And I think if we can develop something like that for boys volleyball, the demand would be crazy. It'd be high. It'd be everyone wanting to play boys volleyball as long as, I would hope, and I would think that. But let's, you know, obviously, hope for the best in that situation.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Yeah. Well, I think that's true. And I think one of the great things about volleyball is it is a sport that both girls and boys can play at a high level. You know, sometimes I think there is, you know, with some sports, you know, that they just, like, you know, girls try to play exactly how the boys do and all that kind of stuff and it's a bit difficult. But I think volleyball is the one sport that that really could take place. And it really is amazing because you'll see other coed teams and all that kind of stuff and, I think, that's an indicative of that, where, if we just continue to be patient and we'll get the younger generation excited and eventually, you know, for the rest of their life.
JACK: Exactly, well, thank you again for jumping on the call and I appreciate your time and all of your expertise.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Thank you.
JACK: All right. Thanks Stephen. We'll talk soon.
STEPHEN MCCARTHY: Thank you. Bye.
JACK: All right, bye-bye.
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